dan13

hey guys
how about starting a discussion on a new song....probably the MOST debated song (as far as its lyrical influences are concerned) in U2's repertoire...."Until the End of the World." is this a song about just love and betrayal? of course. people have different opinions about who the subjects are. i think the song was written from judas' perspective though. about how he loved jesus but betrayed him and then regretting it. yet i dont understand where jesus was "talking about the end of the world." did he talk about it during the last supper? or is there some other reference?

Achtung Bubba

Just glancing through Matthew, Mark, and Luke, I don't see any obvious references to "the end of the world", that is, the Second Coming and the final judgment of man.

But there are plenty of references to the end of Christ's ministry: that Christ will soon be betrayed, and that He won't eat again until He sees His Father.

For a disciple that didn't see the big picture -- Judas -- Christ's ministry ending by his execution is pretty much the end of his world as he knew it.

Of course, that's just my interpretation. I could be wrong.


And if you can't tell, I'd love to talk about "Until the End of the World." I was just waiting for someone to mention it.

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- Achtung Bubba

[This message has been edited by Achtung Bubba (edited 06-19-2000).]

NicaMom

I think Until the End of the World is about Judas' betrayal..."I took the money"..."I kissed your lips".
The reference, "You were talking about the end of the world" is because Jesus often talked about his second coming, when we would come face to face with God

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Mariana
To Touch is to Heal
To Hurt is to Steal
If you want to kiss the sky
Better learn how to kneel...

bonovoice

My opinion will be based in myself and a book about U2!!
It´s about the best song of U2: until the end of the world

The song is about betrayal and redemption...
Betrayal because Edge´s marriage was failing and Larry wasn´t sure of his place in the band anymore....

The song is about an encounter,an illicit one,with a stong suggestion of prostitution.
By one side, he can put it´s writing in the point of view of Judas Iscariot, but we can also put in Bono way,is writing about himself and his own capacity of betrayal.or maybe someone betrayed Bono?
In fact, the Achtung baby album ment the end of the world as they knew...
Finally, i think the song is about betrayal, but i think thats is writen in the poin of vue of the betrayled...
... and knocks that we ear in the firt 10 seconds of the song?
...like Jesus in the cross.... being nailed...

i liked very much the previous opinions about this magnificent song!!!!

(sorry for the bad english)

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until the end of the world...

popsadie

Hi...newcomer to this forum
Regarding Until The End of the World..i also agree that the Judas/betrayal interpretation is an accurate one.But, I don't think that it is Only supposed to connect to that...I see the ambiguity of the song to be on purpose. To me, the larger theme of betrayal between both man and God and man and his fellow man/woman is the essence of Achtung Baby...and that the two are intertwined with each other. The betrayal of man to another man is also the betrayal of man to God. "For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he Has seen, cannot love God, whom he hasn't seen- 1 John 4:20) A song like UTEOW could be viewed as a betrayal of a human relationship...or as a theme of betrayal/redemption in the Judas account...or as a combination of both...a description of the way some believers feel at times when they come face to face with their failures...a song of guilt about letting down both their fellow man And the God they want to serve...which is the way i often connect with it.
Another song where I see a possible spiritual/romantic love juxtaposition is in WOWY. I know there are alot of interps of this song...but to me, its mostly a song of guilt and struggle..possibly sung by a believing man who has betrayed a wife or friend...thus the mixing of the betrayal/sex images with religous imagery. One could also view it as a straight love song, or as a song about the difficulty of following Christ...with or without you...i can't Live with or without You...on one hand, i can't live the way i want to with You..because being with You involves submission of myself..but on the other hand, I can't Live without You..because You are my true life..the source of my true joy.

in the name of love,
Megan

Achtung Bubba

There really is quite a bit of sexual imagery in "Until the End of the World."

The low-lit room, the "bride and groom" reference, the bread and wine... the idea of playing the tart, and breaking his/her heart with a kiss...

And perhaps the lyrics that give me the most pause:

In my dream I was drowning my sorrows
But my sorrows, they learned to swim
Surrounding me, going down on me
Spilling over the brim
Waves of regret and waves of joy
I reached out for the one I tried to destroy

I read in Niall Stokes' "Into the Heart" that this could be a reference to, well, to oral sex. I'm uncomfortable about the possibility if the song is ONLY about Christ and Judas, but if it extends to love and betrayal in general, it *could* work.

(As an aside, I think Stokes needs to see a therapist. He's more than a little obsessed on the subject, from what I can tell.)

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- Achtung Bubba

(And welcome to the forum, popsadie! )

[This message has been edited by Achtung Bubba (edited 06-20-2000).]

NicaMom

I take "being close as bride and groom" as a reference to the washing of the feet and knowing each other so well.
The bread and wine represents the last supper.
And the "drowning and swiming sorrows" interpretation by Stokes....well I never thought of that and I don't think that's what's about.



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Mariana
To Touch is to Heal
To Hurt is to Steal
If you want to kiss the sky
Better learn how to kneel...

Achtung Bubba

I hope not, too.

Stokes also thought there was a refernce to it in "Wild Horses", with the line about "saltwater kisses".

My thought? Rhythmically, and image-wise, there's a lot of sexuality in Achtung Baby, perhaps including "Until the End of the World", especially if the song has multiple meanings.

But Stokes went a *little* too far.

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- Achtung Bubba

NicaMom

Yeah, I agree, Achtung Baby is a very sexual album. Many of its songs have multiple meanings.
What's your interpretation of "Who's gonna ride your wild horses?" I read that is about an affair one of the band members had.



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Mariana
To Touch is to Heal
To Hurt is to Steal
If you want to kiss the sky
Better learn how to kneel...

Achtung Bubba

Of all the songs of the 90's, "Who's Gonna Ride..." is to me one of the most cryptic, and one of the most difficult to analyze.

I usually take it as a song from a guy who's desperately pursuing the wrong kind of woman, and in the song he's trying to correct some mistake, to convine her to take him back.

The object is either "the wrong kind of woman", a woman who can't open up to the guy, or just a woman who may not be interested in the man -- bad news for the guy in any case:

Well you left my heart empty as a vacant lot
For any spirit to haunt

Well you tell me things I know you're not supposed to
Then you leave me just out of reach

He's pursuing the woman, perhaps too fervently:

Oh, the hunter will sin for your ivory skin

And he's trying to win back her love (or at least her friendship and affection):

Baby, can we still be friends?

This could all EASILY be applied to an affair one of the boys had (or an affair a friend of theirs had, used as kind of an inspiration). The most interesting thing is that, given it's about an affair, it could be sung to either the mistress or the wife, trying to win either back.

I guess I generalize it to my interpretation because I'm usually in that situation: I usually fall in love with the wrong girl (who likes me but doesn't like me, if you see the difference). I usually screw things up even beyond being friends, and I occasionally try very hard to rebuild the friendship.

So my analysis is probably a BIT skewed.

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- Achtung Bubba

NicaMom

The line, "Took a drive in the dirty rain, to a place where the wind calls your name", could be interpreted as secret meetings.
Also the lines, "you're a piece a glass left there on the beach" and "you're dangerous 'cos you're honest" could also mean he's afraid she might talk about the affair.
But your interpretation works too.
About those girls, don't worry, you'll find the right one someday.

------------------
Mariana
To Touch is to Heal
To Hurt is to Steal
If you want to kiss the sky
Better learn how to kneel...



[This message has been edited by NicaMom (edited 06-23-2000).]

Achtung Bubba

I never really thought about those lines that way, but it makes sense.

And we're both ignoring the most important lines of the song:

"Hey, hey, sha-la-la"

And I'm (kinda) confident I'll eventually find the right girl. Until then, I need to relax, let it go, and play "Bad". A lot.

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- Achtung Bubba

[This message has been edited by Achtung Bubba (edited 06-25-2000).]

azure

Yes, "Achtung Baby" is a very sexy album. Egads, how about EBTTRT? It does sound like someone who's desperate, but it just has such a sexual *ambience* about it, you can just take the idea of two lovers and go anywhere with it.

Salome

I know this isn't the most recent topic, but since I'm new to this forum I'd still like to say what I think:
- Maybe I'm just a bit crazy, but almost everytime Bono sings about female person to me it sounds like it's about his mother / a God-like creature. Someone whom he wants to get in touch with but just can't.
- Achtung Baby, on numerous occasions, touches on the subject of stardom. EBTTRT and Trying to throw... being the most obvious examples.
- Untill the end ... to me is about the feeling of betraying God by leading the pop-star kind-of-life. Brought to life by the Judas-figure.

At least that's what I think.
Could be way of

Achtung Bubba

Hey, Salome,

First, welcome to the forum. Second, don't worry about this being an old topic; I was hoping it would be around for a while.

On to your observations:

* Yeah, I agree, the bulk of Bono's obsession with women has probably centered around three figures: his mother ("Lemon"), his wife ("Sweetest Thing"), and probably the Holy Spirit ("The First Time").

* I also agree that Bono's really, REALLY aware of his stardom. Beyond Achtung Baby, he's addressed as recently as "Hold Me..." and "Gone" and as early as "The Ocean".

(Speaking of "The Ocean", I have a couple thoughts on the song. First, taking the ocean as a metaphor for the sea of fans, the song is prophetic and little presumptious for Bono of 1979-80. And taking it as a song of youth thinking the world revolves around it, it's quite observant.)

* Finally, I don't think anyone's mentioned the rock star slant on "Until the End...". It sounds reasonable, and I'd love to hear why you came to that conclusion.



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- Achtung Bubba