Baby refuseniks - Page 8

martha · 08-02-2009, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yolland

^ Actually, the average adoption cost (in the US) is around $25,000, whereas the average combined cost of pregnancy and childbirth (again, in the US) is around $8000. Adopting an older child through the foster care system (public agency adoption) is relatively quite inexpensive, but that's not the option most prospective adoptive parents here choose. And all this is setting aside the non-financial complexities.

No, she spent $20,000 on in vitro.

indra · 08-02-2009, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martha

No, she spent $20,000 on in vitro.

Still less expensive than the average adoption though.

**yolland** · 08-02-2009, 08:23 PM

OK...sorry, I thought you were making a generalized statement about biological parents as opposed to adoptive parents, now I gather you're actually talking about a specific individual you know. Seems to me that her reasons are her business, though?

No spoken words · 08-02-2009, 08:29 PM

This thread confuses me, but, then again, I'm easily flummoxed.

My take on people that want to have kids:

That's great, I hope you make for a great parent and do not extend yourself too far financially if you start having myriad children.

My take on people that do not want to have kids:

That's great, I hope you lead a rich life and if you are/do get married, I hope you're not too bombarded with "when are you guys having a baby???' queries.

I mean, again, this is a simple take on things, but, it is my take on it.

Bottom line? I don't give a fuck if people want to have kids or not. I don't know why I would or should, let alone why I'd term someone from either camp as being "selfish".

And, in case anyone gives more of a fuck than I do, yes, I'd like to have children one day.

indra · 08-02-2009, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yolland

Seems to me that her reasons are her business, though?

This should always be the case. Really no one should give a crap whether or not anyone else wants or doesn't want children, or how they want to have them (unless it's illegal

), or how much they have to pay, or even why they want children (again, unless the why is illegal). Generally speaking though none of it should be any one else's business at all. Therefore I feel any nosy questions about when, why, why not, how, how much, what were you thinking??!!, etc. regarding children, should always be met with silence and one's best and most withering death stare.

martha · 08-02-2009, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yolland

OK...sorry, I thought you were making a generalized statement about biological parents as opposed to adoptive parents, now I gather you're actually talking about a specific individual you know. Seems to me that her reasons are her business, though?

Absolutely her own business. I had other issues with the way she conducted the rest of her life, but I never took it upon myself to offer her my uninvited opinions about any of it.

Not being maternal at all, not only have I never understood the desire to procreate, I really don't get the whole in vitro, my-personal-baby-at-all-costs mindset. But again, if people want to do it, fine.

And I certainly wouldn't make any laws against it just because I think it's a little on the immoral side.

kafrun · 08-02-2009, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnnRKeyintheUSA

On calling Kramwest an asshole, I edited that remark out less than ten seconds after I wrote it and he grabbed it and posted it. That alone makes him a classless asshole kids or no kids.

I think Cori responded well to this earlier, but I'd like to add that you clearly haven't had much interaction with him if this is what you think. He's far from it, based on my experience

**yolland** · 08-03-2009, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martha

Not being maternal at all, not only have I never understood the desire to procreate, I really don't get the whole in vitro, my-personal-baby-at-all-costs mindset. But again, if people want to do it, fine.

And I certainly wouldn't make any laws against it just because I think it's a little on the immoral side.

Eh...well, I'm inclined to doubt we would've considered something like IVF had we been unable to conceive; I think at that point we'd probably have opted to 'take it as a sign' that adoption was the way to go for us and tried for that instead. But I don't see why it's an immoral choice to make. I don't think most people who wind up having biological children ever seriously consider adoption as an alternative but, for those who do consider it, I doubt that existential judgments as to their hypothetical adopted child's "worthiness" of a loving home compared to their hypothetical biological child's actually enter into it. For many people there's something deeply moving and wondrous about partaking in the process by which all life on earth has furthered itself all these millions of years, in a way which has nothing to do with any pretense at qualitative comparisons of your own hypothetical offspring to someone else's. (And of course it'd be just that, pretense, because what we can't know about how our children, biological or adopted, will 'turn out' dwarfs what we can know, and we all recognize this reality when it comes down to it.) I just don't think it's reasonable to suggest that someone who chooses to have biological children, including by IVF, is somehow 'wronging' all the adoptable children out there, any more than it would be to suggest the same of people who choose never to become parents at all.

Like meegannie and NSW, I'm really flummoxed by the whole idea that whether someone has children (and if s/he does, how, unless we're talking rape or abduction) says much of anything about his or her moral character, 'selfishness,' etc. How you treat the people in your life, children and otherwise--that's where you reveal those kinds of things.

Laura M · 08-03-2009, 02:41 AM

Maybe it's something that I'll think about in a few years time but right now I can't imagine having children. That seems to surprise some people. Some folk feel that I should know I definitely want them.

I once made the mistake of telling a work colleague that and she tried to convince me that we HAVE to have children because "they're so cute, how could you not definitely want some?!"

Sure, kids can be cute but that doesn't seem like a reason to have one.

Now my fiance's siblings all have children, his Mum has told him he'll be a Dad soon or his work friends ask him when he wants to have children now because all his siblings have babies so that probably makes him feel like he wants some, exactly the same type of thing my work colleague says. I guess when people have children of their own, they can't imagine people not having/choosing to have any because it's what their life now revolves around.

meegannie · 08-03-2009, 04:49 AM

I don't think adoption vs. IVF is an easy choice by any means, and I doubt it's one that most people make without careful consideration. I know that here in the UK, the domestic adoption process for an older child takes an average of 3-5 years, and can take 7-10 years for a baby. The criteria to be considered for the adoption are quite strict, and things like a history of depression or being over 35 can adversely affect an application (or disqualify the applicant if the application is to adopt an infant). There is also a policy of matching the race/ethnicity of a child to prospective adoptive families, which can prolong the wait for a match. All adoptions are open adoptions, and the birth family still maintains contact in many cases, which many people who would otherwise like to adopt may not be comfortable with. Obviously, this creates a situation where there are people for whom adoption may not be a possibility or those are just not suited to adoption, but who aren't necessarily unsuited to being parents.

With IVF, each cycle only has a success rate of approximately 30% (if NHS funding can be secured, it only covers 1-3 cycles, so many people will have to pay for private treatment). Then there are considerations like travel expenses, time off work, side effects of fertility drugs, etc., in addition to larger ethical concerns like what to do with any remaining embryos (and if the embryos are donated there is no anonymity, so embryo donors will have to consider the possibilty of any children resulting from those embryos turning up at their door in eighteen years!).

financeguy · 08-03-2009, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martha

And I certainly wouldn't make any laws against it just because I think it's a little on the immoral side.

BEAL · 08-03-2009, 10:21 AM

I can't make any relationship work (regardless of who's fault...), so why would I even consider having children?

Not having kids has enabled me to do things I probably would have struggled to do. I've travelled to Europe 3 times, been to Hawaii, an Alaskan Cruise....and overall been able to make sure my life is financially secure.

Do I think about having kids? Sure, who doesn't? Do I think I'd be a good parent, I don't know. I am a bit selfish, and while it's debatable those feelings/attitudes would change, I just don't see it being a good move.

unico · 08-03-2009, 10:36 AM

I think what frustrates me the most about my decision to not have children is when people say "Oh, you'll change your mind." Or other dismissive statements that indicate they aren't taking me seriously. I mean, sure, I may be young, but I'm pretty sure that I know myself far better than anyone else does. So why do people who like/have kids think that everyone else wants them? I also can't stand it when someone just throws one of those spawn things in my face, and assumes I want to gush all over it just because I'm a woman. No, I don't want to touch the stinky gross slobbering screaming thing! Why would I? I don't have any sort of maternal instinct, and I definitely don't have a desire to hold/have a baby.

Which, I guess is odd, because I do like to help people...but it's just babies I can't handle, for whatever reason.

Now, I don't want to have kids. Will I ever have kids? Who knows. After all, my both my brother and I were conceived when my mom was on BC.

I don't think the decision to have or not have kids is selfish. I think trying to impose one's views on another is.

Liesje · 08-03-2009, 10:42 AM

I have the opposite problem - because I don't have kids yet people assume I'm some kind of baby-hater and/or assume that I'm some freak dog person that treats my dogs like children. I never said I didn't want kids, I just don't want them now. And no, my dogs are *not* a replacement for children. A dog is a dog and a child is a child. I love my dogs and spend a lot of time and money on them but would I throw my dog in front of a bus if it saved a child? Yes, any day of the week.

martha · 08-03-2009, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yolland

But I don't see why it's an immoral choice to make.

I don't know; I think that spending that much money just to make a baby because you can't make one the regular way, when there are already 6 billion people on the planet, many of them starving babies, is just a little weird.

And I know that I do stuff that makes people go

, so that's why in reality, I think that if that's how they want to spend their money, then have at it.

08-02-2009, 08:23 PM	#108
yolland Forum Moderator Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 5,847 Local Time: 11:37 AM	OK...sorry, I thought you were making a generalized statement about biological parents as opposed to adoptive parents, now I gather you're actually talking about a specific individual you know. Seems to me that her reasons are her business, though? __________________ yolland@interference.com μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης

08-03-2009, 10:42 AM	#119
Liesje Best in Show Premium Gold Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In the dog house. Posts: 18,196 Local Time: 06:37 AM	I have the opposite problem - because I don't have kids yet people assume I'm some kind of baby-hater and/or assume that I'm some freak dog person that treats my dogs like children. I never said I didn't want kids, I just don't want them now. And no, my dogs are not a replacement for children. A dog is a dog and a child is a child. I love my dogs and spend a lot of time and money on them but would I throw my dog in front of a bus if it saved a child? Yes, any day of the week. __________________

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08-02-2009, 08:29 PM	#109
No spoken words Blue Crack Supplier Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Clavius Base Posts: 32,476 Local Time: 05:37 AM	This thread confuses me, but, then again, I'm easily flummoxed. My take on people that want to have kids: That's great, I hope you make for a great parent and do not extend yourself too far financially if you start having myriad children. My take on people that do not want to have kids: That's great, I hope you lead a rich life and if you are/do get married, I hope you're not too bombarded with "when are you guys having a baby???' queries. I mean, again, this is a simple take on things, but, it is my take on it. Bottom line? I don't give a fuck if people want to have kids or not. I don't know why I would or should, let alone why I'd term someone from either camp as being "selfish". And, in case anyone gives more of a fuck than I do, yes, I'd like to have children one day.

08-03-2009, 02:41 AM	#114
Laura M Blue Crack Addict Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 18,927 Local Time: 11:37 AM	Maybe it's something that I'll think about in a few years time but right now I can't imagine having children. That seems to surprise some people. Some folk feel that I should know I definitely want them. I once made the mistake of telling a work colleague that and she tried to convince me that we HAVE to have children because "they're so cute, how could you not definitely want some?!" Sure, kids can be cute but that doesn't seem like a reason to have one. Now my fiance's siblings all have children, his Mum has told him he'll be a Dad soon or his work friends ask him when he wants to have children now because all his siblings have babies so that probably makes him feel like he wants some, exactly the same type of thing my work colleague says. I guess when people have children of their own, they can't imagine people not having/choosing to have any because it's what their life now revolves around.

08-03-2009, 04:49 AM	#115
meegannie Blue Crack Addict Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Norwich, England Posts: 15,784 Local Time: 10:37 AM	I don't think adoption vs. IVF is an easy choice by any means, and I doubt it's one that most people make without careful consideration. I know that here in the UK, the domestic adoption process for an older child takes an average of 3-5 years, and can take 7-10 years for a baby. The criteria to be considered for the adoption are quite strict, and things like a history of depression or being over 35 can adversely affect an application (or disqualify the applicant if the application is to adopt an infant). There is also a policy of matching the race/ethnicity of a child to prospective adoptive families, which can prolong the wait for a match. All adoptions are open adoptions, and the birth family still maintains contact in many cases, which many people who would otherwise like to adopt may not be comfortable with. Obviously, this creates a situation where there are people for whom adoption may not be a possibility or those are just not suited to adoption, but who aren't necessarily unsuited to being parents. With IVF, each cycle only has a success rate of approximately 30% (if NHS funding can be secured, it only covers 1-3 cycles, so many people will have to pay for private treatment). Then there are considerations like travel expenses, time off work, side effects of fertility drugs, etc., in addition to larger ethical concerns like what to do with any remaining embryos (and if the embryos are donated there is no anonymity, so embryo donors will have to consider the possibilty of any children resulting from those embryos turning up at their door in eighteen years!).

08-03-2009, 10:21 AM	#117
BEAL War Child Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Des Moines Posts: 987 Local Time: 10:37 AM	I can't make any relationship work (regardless of who's fault...), so why would I even consider having children? Not having kids has enabled me to do things I probably would have struggled to do. I've travelled to Europe 3 times, been to Hawaii, an Alaskan Cruise....and overall been able to make sure my life is financially secure. Do I think about having kids? Sure, who doesn't? Do I think I'd be a good parent, I don't know. I am a bit selfish, and while it's debatable those feelings/attitudes would change, I just don't see it being a good move.

08-03-2009, 10:36 AM	#118
unico Blue Crack Addict Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Rage Ave. Posts: 18,208 Local Time: 06:37 AM	I think what frustrates me the most about my decision to not have children is when people say "Oh, you'll change your mind." Or other dismissive statements that indicate they aren't taking me seriously. I mean, sure, I may be young, but I'm pretty sure that I know myself far better than anyone else does. So why do people who like/have kids think that everyone else wants them? I also can't stand it when someone just throws one of those spawn things in my face, and assumes I want to gush all over it just because I'm a woman. No, I don't want to touch the stinky gross slobbering screaming thing! Why would I? I don't have any sort of maternal instinct, and I definitely don't have a desire to hold/have a baby. Which, I guess is odd, because I do like to help people...but it's just babies I can't handle, for whatever reason. Now, I don't want to have kids. Will I ever have kids? Who knows. After all, my both my brother and I were conceived when my mom was on BC. I don't think the decision to have or not have kids is selfish. I think trying to impose one's views on another is.