VintagePunk

The above two posts very accurately reflect my thoughts and feelings about this topic. Very well said, Anitram.

I know this wasn't directed to me, but I'm going to take a crack at it, anyway.

To answer the question of "where do we go from here," for me, it's very difficult to discuss a topic that I see in very black and white terms (and believe me, I'm anything but a black and white thinker, in general). Your side is unequivocally wrong, period. Any argument your side has put forth in (quasi) factual, societal, moral, interpersonal, historical or religious terms has been proven shoddy, and plain and simply wrong in many threads like these over the years. Real life examples disprove your arguments. Peer-reviewed science disproves your arguments. Anecdotal observation disproves your arguments. Logic disproves your arguments. History disproves your arguments. Entire nations disprove your arguments. So, for someone like me, it's awfully frustrating to see this discussion go around yet again, while a segment of the population is living without rights that heterosexual people take for granted, playing a waiting game (and, as you said, the time will come), until the whims of a mostly straight population say it's okay for them to participate as full citizens.

So, I really don't see any point in this "discussion." It's all been said and done before. But hats off to those of you who do have the patience to do this again. My level of frustration with the morality police is just way too high to take part in any meaningful way, usually.


This is correct. And the day after the legislation was passed here in Canada in 2005, the sun rose, we all got up, and went on with our lives. Now we have some same sex marriages, we have more hetero marriages. And really? No one even pays attention, it's business as usual. Canada was the 4th country to allow it. The Netherlands was the first, in 2001.

By the way, you left South Africa off your same sex marriage list. South Africa is more progressive than the US.

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diamond

Let's not forget South Africa has the highest crime rate in the world, Brazil is 2nd.

So much for progressiveness.

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AnnRKeyintheUSA

Umm guys just 4 the record gay marriage/rights was/were never ever an issue in the VA election and were never mentioned in any of the commercials/mudslinging so why has this thread on the VA election been taken over by this subject? Could a mod please split it so we can get back to discussing each topic individually?

DrTeeth

I went to my uncles' wedding that year (or the next, can't remember). How time flies

DrTeeth

What does this even mean? What if he's happy doing something you don't consider masculine (like joining the ballet, apparently).

AEON

I think we steered it off course in discussing the Maine gay marriage vote. One person posts, then a reply, then another reply - and that leads to another reply - and before you know it, we are talking about Hitler and the Big Bang.

Sorry about helping to steer it.

Back to the topic - I do tend to agree with those that feel that any incumbent is in danger no matter what their party. I think many people are just fed up with the entire political system (or corruption of it). On one hand - we have a Democratic congress shoving huge spending projects with money we don't have - or will ever have, and on the other hand we have the whining Republicans who just spent more tax payer money in history up until that point.

Both parties suck. And I think the main cause of our troubles (at least one of them) is that we allow companies and organizations to contribute to campaigns. How in the world is this not seen as a conflict of interest? These people are buying the people that make the laws - and then the lawmakers return the favor by implementing laws or approving a bill that directly benefits the people that "bought" them. It's sick.

In Plato's Republic, the Guardians could not own land or money. The idea being it would lessen the leaders' vulnerability to bribery. I think something along these lines would help.

So I think we will continue to see a "throw the suckers out" voting trend whether it is Democrat or Republican.

VintagePunk

Rate of crime does not necessarily equate to human rights, or lack thereof. Societies in transition often do experience a period of upheaval, including higher rates of crime. That still doesn't take away from the fact that South Africa is more progressive than the US in the matter of equality for homosexuals.



Now this I can agree with.

__________________

We've been through
Some things together
With trunks of memories
Still to come
We found things to do
In stormy weather
Long may you run.

Irvine511

don't have time for an in depth response, but let me ask you this: how do you understand yourself as a white person? do you achieve this knowledge through negative comparisons with others, or do you simply acknowledge that people are simply different, there are different races in the world, and that's how it is. i certainly think it's possible for a heterosexual male to understand himself as neither a homosexual male nor a heterosexual female and not have that sense of understanding come from calling women bitches, calling gays faggots, or queer bashing or raping their prom date.

children who have close family members or gay parents tend to be heterosexual about 95% of the time -- yet, most (i assume nearly all) don't grow up thinking that gay people are less human than they are.

also, there are straight ballet dancers who live in San Francisco, and gay football players who live in Tennessee.

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INDY500

That might explain why the Titans are 2 and 6 this year.

Irvine511

gays can't play football.

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AEON

LOL! Good to see you still have your sense of humor.