Moggio

Wrong. U2 did TWO sets of returns in the NYC metro area on the Vertigo tour that were SPREAD OUT. One set in October. One set in November.

Nice try.


Why?

Moggio

The reason why The Police & U2 outgrossed Madonna in Ireland is because they're more popular than her in Ireland.

Did you ask every single one of them whether or not they were willing to pay to get it, or if they just wanted to listen to the music from outside?

You've got a LOT to learn.

If what you're saying is true and U2 really didn't meet demand at that point in time on the Vertigo tour, then today U2 would be popular enough to schedule a coast to coast STADIUM tour of North America for their next tour, considering the kind of prices they're charging nowadays.

But we both know that's not going to happen...

Moggio

No, six weeks is not essentially the same time. And not all of the shows went on sale over a six week period.

My point was, that with MAJOR tours & promoters like this, it rarely ever happens. You could use PopMart as an example. But in the end, U2 still made millions from that tour.

If I went into a extremely detailed response (which would take a very long time) about concert demand formulas that are utilized by promoters, you'd find yet another way to spin it. So why should I bother?

I didn't say that. And no is proof needed. Madonna didn't tour for nearly 8 years. It's pretty obvious she wasn't interested in touring at this point in time.

Nope.

You stated that none of them agree with me. So, in order for them to agree or disagree with me, they'd have to be reading my posts on this board. And just because there is no statement from promoters that we've read regarding whether or not Madonna is a larger draw than U2, doesn't necessarily mean she isn't. The numbers don't lie.

And if my interpretation if the concert business is so "wild", then why is it a piece of cake for me to score below face value tix to concerts, even if they're listed as "sold out"? I have saved over $500 in the past two and a half years doing so...and NO ARTIST is immune to this strategy.

Moggio

It depends on the artist. It's a very broad question. Major grossing artists that stage massive touring operations (The Stones, U2, The Police, Pink Floyd, etc.) sometimes need a few years to let demand sustain and/or increase. Whereas, moderately grossing artists (Rush, Tom Petty, Pearl Jam, Neil Young, etc.) can tour nearly every year and sustain and/or increase their grosses...

Maoilbheannacht

1. You made NO such distinction for return engagements. Here is what you said:

I simply responded to the formula you presented.


2. If your going to claim that the November 21-22 shows are seperate from the 5 they did from October 7 to October 14, how much closer to the October shows when the November shows have to be in order to be consider one set of return shows. Whats the cut off date?



3. Remember you said that U2's gross in the New York City area without return engagements was the following:

BUT, you also stated multiple times in the UKMIX FORUM that:

or


So, we take $14 million dollars and add 20% to that because of your own admission that U2 underplayed the market by that amount. Add 20% to $14 million and you get $16.8 million which is MORE than Madonna's $16.5 million.

So, once again, USING YOUR OWN FORMULA, we show that U2 is the bigger draw than Madonna in the New York City area!




I'm curious to know if you consider San Diego to be virtually the same market as Los Angeles. Is it?

Maoilbheannacht

People were trying to break into the venue and begging the concert staff to sell more tickets. I waited and asked for tickets for hours. Some people had signs asking for tickets. But no one was able to get any. Some people who had been there all day said the last ticket they saw available was sold for 3 times face value at 10:00 AM! There were no tickets available at all.


I'd say it definitely would be happening if not for the current financial crises the world is currently in. Without knowing the full impact of this crises, yet, I'd say if U2 does tour in 2009, that it will be a very conservative tour, maybe all indoors, even in Europe. They also might postpone the album release until late 2009 and then tour in 2010. But we'll know for sure in a few months I guess.

Maoilbheannacht

Well, considering that most tours stagger their on sale dates over several weeks, what would you consider to be essentially the same time? What shows did not go on sale in that 6 week period?


I'm not asking you to go into any detail, just to point to a source other than yourself to back up what you claim in regards to the formula's and statistics.

I know thats your opinion, but what evidence do you have that supports your conclusion? In 1997, it had only been four years since Madonna toured. Can you find anyone in 1996 or 1997 that considered Madonna to be inactive or retired for some indefinite period of time? Michael Cohl was not just talking about artist who were actively touring in 1997.


Ok, what was the exact qoute, and where is your source?


I said none of their statements I have seen agree with what you have been saying. I know they don't look at this forum, but they certainly talk about the concert industry a lot, so I thought you should be able to find something they have said which would back up the formula and claims your making.

Its not actually the numbers were talking about. Were talking about your interpretation of the numbers and the formula's you have created for assessing what they mean. If you were to just take the raw boxscore numbers and add them up, U2 is ahead of Madonna period.

Maoilbheannacht

Yet, in response to me saying that it takes about 3 years for the market to fully recover for all artist to their best business, you said the following in the UKMIX FORUM:


Madonna's Chicago shows this year are taking place 2 and a half years AFTER the last time she played Chicago. So according to you, it should not be a factor at all.

Moggio

There really is no cut off date. As long as shows are scheduled apart, the formula starts to apply. And I didn't need to really point out that out. And I'm not claiming they were separate. They WERE separate. Period. And you ALREADY KNEW THAT. Keep Spinnin'...

The point is that MADONNA IS A LARGER DRAW THAN U2 IS, OVERALL. Period. Why you can't admit that is beyond me?


I did not admit that U2 underplayed that market in 2005. They didn't. What you quoted was from 2006. I said 10-20%, which is the best case scenario after only one year. And it's convenient, you're utilizing the absolute highest percentage I stated, instead of the lowest... Also, when I said demand sustains after only one year, I was referring to many artists. I wasn't referring to all artists.

Wrong.

No, I don't.

Moggio

Considering your history of fudging the facts. I really have no reason to believe that.

Yeah, right. Nice excuse. It's because demand isn't there for a full U2 North American STADIUM tour, at the prices they're charging. And YOU KNOW IT.

Moggio

When I said that demand sustains after only one year, I was referring to many artists. I wasn't referring to all artists.

Moggio

Are you joking? The same time is the same time.

Again, what's the point, when you'll just find a way to spin it, like you ALWAYS DO.

Madonna toured in 1985, 1987, 1990 and 1993. She then didn't tour again until 2001. Figure it out, genius. It's beyond obvious.

Prove it.

It's up to you, NOT ME, to provide an exact quote. Since YOU were the one who brought it up.

Just because there is no promoter statement we can find to state Madonna is a larger draw than U2, doesn't necessarily mean she isn't. The numbers don't lie.

It's not "my interpretation" and the formulas in question aren't ones "I have created". This is text book stuff.

Well, of course...because U2 have PLAYED MORE SHOWS than Madonna has per tour. And because U2 HAVE DONE RETURN ENGAGEMENTS on their most recent tours - MADONNA HASN'T.

Maoilbheannacht

Define seperate? Are you saying they are seperate because they are individual days, weeks, months? If the November shows on November 20-21 were on October 20 and 21, would you actually consider that to be a seperate return date?


Every time you used the fact that U2 underplayed the market, and that they could have grossed 10% to 20% more, you were talking about the tour in general. You never stated that it only applied to certain markets. New York City was one of the largest markets of the tour, so naturally it would apply there.


Well than how can you consider Fresno to be virtually the same market as Oakland California? Fresno is about a 3 hour drive from Oakland while San Diego is only a 2 hour drive from San Diego.

Maoilbheannacht

Anyone thats at least taken economics 101 realizes that what many consider to be the greatest global financial crises since the 1930s could indeed impact nearly any type of business in 2009.

But lets leave that out for a second and take a look at your idea that U2 underplayed the market in 2005 by 10% to 20%. U2 grossed $138 million dollars in 2005 in the US/Canadian market. If we add 20% because they underplayed the market, we get $165.5 million for 2005. But, were talking about a tour in 2009, so we need to adjust for inflation.

$165 million dollars in 2005 will probably be about $185 million dollars in 2009. If U2 charge an average of $100 dollars a ticket in 2009, this suggest they will play to 1,850,000 people in USA/Canada. If they do that with 42 stadium shows, that comes out to an average of about 44,000 people per night. U2 could repeat the Outside Broadcast ZOO TV TOUR of the USA and Canada in 2009 if they are charging an average of $100 dollars a ticket.

Again, this all derived for using YOUR FORMULA's and YOUR IDEA's.

So, even by your rules, U2 could repeat the stadium part of their North American tour from ZOO TV.

Maoilbheannacht

Sorry, but since you did not make that distinction on the UKMIX FORUM, your automatically applying it to ALL artist, especially big artist like
U2 and the Rolling Stones since that is who we were discussing.

One can't really say that Madonna has ever been guilty of overplaying markets when you look at her full tour history.

She is playing Vancouver Canada for the first time ever on this tour! Her shows in Austria, Switzerland, Greece, Montenegro, were also first! When you have never played a particular market before and you have had a big career like Madonna, your gross is naturally going to be inflated by that factor. So this is another major issue that your completely overlooking when comparing Madonna to U2.