Moggio

Concerts may be listed as officially sold out. But that's not the real story. No concert is EVER technically sold out. Depending on how much you are willing to pay, you can almost always get tickets to any event you want to attend. Scalpers/brokers have access to many of the best seats and hence create an artificially elevated demand. Apart from exceptional seats, scalpers/brokers sell many tix that they bought weeks in advance but can't get rid of at around $30-$40 below face value prices (sometimes more) an hour or less before the show. I have saved over $500 in the past two and a half years doing this and have rarely paid face value prices (including opening night of The Police's 30th Anniversary tour), unless exceptional seats are available and are within my price range.

Well, let's see...

Here are boxscores from the North American leg of Madonna's Confessions tour in 2006:


The Forum Los Angeles 40,044 / 40,044 (sellout) $7,686,380

MGM Grand Garden Las Vegas 27,528 / 27,528 (sellout) $7,257,750

HP Pavilion at San Jose San Jose 27,024 / 27,024 (sellout) $4,761,555

Staples Center Los Angeles 14,158 / 14,158 (sellout) $2,804,583

Save Mart Center Fresno 20,154 / 20,154 (sellout) $3,749,800

Glendale Arena Phoenix 28,820 / 28,820 (sellout) $4,890,090

United Center Chicago 52,000 / 52,000 (sellout) $9,271,790

Bell Centre Montreal 34,940 / 34,940 (sellout) $5,670,150

Hartford Civic Center Hartford 21,558 / 21,558 (sellout) $3,451,235

Madison Square Garden New York 91,841 / 91,841 (sellout) $16,507,855

TD Banknorth Garden Boston 36,741 / 36,741 (sellout) $6,337,115

Wachovia Center Philadelphia 29,749 / 29,749 (sellout) $4,639,775

Boardwalk Hall Atlantic City 12,322 / 12,322 (sellout) $3,246,100

American Airlines Arena Miami 30,410 / 30,410 (sellout) $5,568,485

Moggio

She has several of the top tours. But it just so happens for the millionth time, that she only plays 50-60 shows per tour. Get it?


It has NOTHING to do with it.

It doesn't matter. Attendance can be adjusted based on what the ticket prices and venue capacity are set at, in relation to what the gross is. Example:

~ If market A's gross is $1 million and the average ticket price is $100, then 10,000 tickets will be sold
~ If market A's gross is $1 million and the average ticket price is $50, then 20,000 tickets will be sold
~ If market A's gross is $1 million and the average ticket price is $25, then 40,000 tickets will be sold
~ If market A's gross is $1 million and the average ticket price is $12.50, then 80,000 tickets will be sold

Etc., etc., etc.

That's how the public react to ticket prices. That's how it works.

Promoters already know what the GROSS is going to be before tickets go on sale, based on formulas relating to album sales. They're not going to risk spending or losing tens of thousands of dollars on production, booking fees, etc, if they aren't sure what GROSS for any given show is going to be. At the point in time a concert is on sale up 'til the actual concert, very few concerts, if any, are underbooked...

Moggio

She doesn't play as many shows as they do for the MILLIONTH time. She does this for personal reasons. But in the markets she does hit, she outgrosses U2 & The Stones in the vast majority of them.

Sold out concerts don't really exist. There are always tickets available. I've gone over this several times now. If promoters want a particular show to look like a sell out, it will. Promoters know what the demand is going to be beforehand and they structure the venue capacity & ticket prices according to what the gross is going to be. That's why some concerts are $20 and some are $200.



Why do I have to keep going over all of this with you?

mosquito

Does anyone have the boxscores of the Michael jackson 1997 European tour?? It was really HUGE .

genesis199125

On top of that Michael Jackson question, does anyone have the figures for top concert tours in terms of attendance. If people have the top grossing concert tours and the average ticket prices, im sure there must be some list for attendance.

Maoilbheannacht

If the artist plays less shows, they naturally increase the level of demand for the shows they do play.

Lets take Madonna's shows in the United Kingdom on the latest tour.

Millennium Stadium Cardiff 33,460 / 33,460 (100%) $5,279,107
Wembley Stadium London 73,349 / 73,349 (100%) $11,796,540

Now lets take a look at U2's shows from their last tour in the United Kingdom:

31, 32. Manchester, England : June 14-15, 2005 : City Of Manchester Stadium : GROSS $11,119,740 : ATTENDANCE 107,671 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

33, 34. London, England : June 18-19, 2005 : Twickenham Stadium : GROSS $13,677,410 : ATTENDANCE 110,796 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

35. Glasgow, Scotland : June 21, 2005 : Hampden Park : GROSS $5,819,053 : ATTENDANCE 53,395 : SHOWS 1 : SELLOUTS 1

39. Cardiff, Wales : June 29, 2005 : Millennium Stadium : GROSS $6,406,073 : ATTENDANCE 63,677 : SHOWS 1 : SELLOUTS 1


The fact that Madonna was only able to attract 33,460 people to her show at Millennium Stadium in Cardiff, roughly half the capacity of the venue shows that with just two shows in the UK, she had already peaked.

On the other hand, U2 soldout all 6 of their shows to full capacity, typically within hours of going on sale. Its overwhelmingly clear that U2 is the bigger draw in the United Kingdom.



Scalpers buy tickets to all concerts, so the fact that you can buy tickets after a concert as soldout is irrelevant. The point is that all the tickets made available through regular legal distribution centers were sold regardless of who bought them.

Lets take a look at U2 and Madonna in Spain:

Madonnna
Circuito Ricardo Tormo Cheste Valencia 50,143 / 50,143 (100%) $4,941,980
Olympic Stadium Sevilla 47,712 / 59,258 (81.5%) $4,874,380

U2
57. Barcelona, Spain : August 7, 2005 : Camp Nou : GROSS $5,130,437 : ATTENDANCE 81,269 : SHOWS 1 : SELLOUTS 1

58. San Sebastian, Spain : August 9, 2005 : Estadio de Anoeta : GROSS $2,936,571 : ATTENDANCE 43,720 : SHOWS 1 : SELLOUTS 1

59. Madrid, Spain : August 11, 2005 : Estadio Vicente Calderon : GROSS $3,679,354 : ATTENDANCE 57,040 : SHOWS 1 : SELLOUTS 1

Each U2 concert is soldout, within hours of going on sale. Madonna's concert in Sevilla is on sale for WEEKS, but does not come anywhere near selling out. Madonna met demand in Spain for her, U2 failed to meet all the demand for them with just 3 shows.


Lets take a look at the Netherlands:

Madonna
Amsterdam Arena Amsterdam 50,588 / 50,588 (100%) $8,140,858


U2
45, 46, 47. Amsterdam, The Netherlands : July 13, 15-16, 2005 : Amsterdam Arena : GROSS $13,022,200 : ATTENDANCE 165,516 : SHOWS 3 : SELLOUTS 3

Here Madonna fails sellout a single night at the Amsterdam Arena.
U2 by contrast sellout 3 shows in just a few hours.

Maoilbheannacht

Well, here are U2's boxscore results from 2005 in North America:

1ST LEG of VERTIGO WORLD TOUR: NORTH AMERICA

1, 2. San Diego, California : March 28, 30, 2005 : ipayOne Center at the Sports Arena : GROSS $2,909,029 : ATTENDANCE 29,140 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

3, 4. Anaheim, California : April 1-2, 2005 : Arrowhead Pond : GROSS $3,454,198 : ATTENDANCE 33,535 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

5, 6. Los Angeles, California : April 5-6, 2005 : Staples Center : GROSS $3,673,850 : ATTENDANCE 34,527 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

7, 8. San Jose, California : April 9-10, 2005 : HP Pavillion : GROSS $3,357,098 : ATTENDANCE 36,140 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

9, 10. Glendale, Arizona : April 14-15, 2005 : Glendale Arena : GROSS $3,198,861 : ATTENDANCE 34,905 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

11, 12. Denver Colorado : April 20-21, 2005 : Pepsi Center : GROSS $3,509,741 : ATTENDANCE 36,714 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

13, 14. Seattle, Washington : April 24-25, 2005 : Key Arena : GROSS $3,105,574 : ATTENDANCE 30,251 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

15, 16. Vancouver, British Columbia : April 28-29, 2005 : General Motors Place : GROSS $3,020,466 : ATTENDANCE 37,031 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

17, 18, 19, 20. Chicago, Illinois : May 7-12, 2005 : United Center : GROSS $7,541,679 : ATTENDANCE 77,173 : SHOWS 4 : SELLOUTS 4

21, 25. Philadelphia, Pennsylvania : May 14-22, 2005 : Wachovia Center : GROSS $3,767,178 : ATTENDANCE 39,273 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

22, 23. East Rutherford, New Jersey : May 17-18, 2005 : Continental Airlines Arena : GROSS $3,838,066 : ATTENDANCE 40,347 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

24. New York, New York : May 21, 2005 : Madison Square Garden : GROSS $1,907,086 : ATTENDANCE 18,415 : SHOWS 1 : SELLOUTS 1

26, 27, 28. Boston, Mass. : May 24, 26, 28, 2005 : FleetCenter : GROSS $5,071,565 : ATTENDANCE 51,658 : SHOWS 3 : SELLOUTS 3

1ST LEG of VERTIGO WORLD TOUR TOTALS

GROSS: $48,354,391
ATTENDANCE: 499,109
AVERAGE GROSS PER SHOW: $1,726,942.5
AVERAGE ATTENDANCE PER SHOW: 17,825
AVERAGE TICKET PRICE: $96.88
SHOWS: 28
SELLOUTS: 28



3RD LEG OF VERTIGO WORLD TOUR: NORTH AMERICA


61, 62, 63, 64. Toronto, Ontario : Sept. 12, 14, 16-17, 2005 : Air Canada Centre : GROSS $7,624,870 : ATTENDANCE 82,572 : SHOWS 4 : SELLOUTS 4

65, 66. Chicago, Illinois : Sept. 20-21, 2005 : United Center : GROSS $3,795,583 : ATTENDANCE 38,815 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

67. Minneapolis, Minn. : Sept. 23, 2005 : Target Center : GROSS $1,823,883 : ATTENDANCE 19,328 : SHOWS 1 : SELLOUTS 1

68. Milwaukee, Wis. : Sept. 25, 2005 : Bradley Center : GROSS $1,782,895 : ATTENDANCE 19,336 : SHOWS 1 : SELLOUTS 1

69, 70. Boston, Mass. : October 3-4, 2005 : TD Banknorth Garden : GROSS $3,381,429 : ATTENDANCE 34,488 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

71, 72, 73, 74, 75. New York, N.Y. : Oct. 7-8, 10-11, 14, 2005 : Madison Square Garden : GROSS $9,658,009 : ATTENDANCE 93,275 : SHOWS 5 : SELLOUTS 5

76, 77. Philadelphia, PA : Oct. 16-17, 2005 : Wachovia Center : GROSS $3,773,053 : ATTENDANCE 39,305 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

78, 79. Washington, D.C. : Oct. 19-20, 2005 : MCI Center : GROSS $3,902,569 : ATTENDANCE 38,181 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

80. Pittsburgh, PA : Oct. 22, 2005 : Melon Arena : GROSS $1,636,798 : ATTENDANCE 16,899 : SHOWS 1 : SELLOUTS 1

81, 82. Auburn Hills, Mich. : Oct. 24-25, 2005 : Palace of Auburn Hills : GROSS $3,951,103 : ATTENDANCE 41,379 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

83. Houston, TX : Oct. 28, 2005 : Toyota Center : GROSS $1,652,699 : ATTENDANCE 17,002 : SHOWS 1 : SELLOUTS 1

84. Dallas, TX : Oct. 29, 2005 : American Airlines Center : GROSS $1,689,471 : ATTENDANCE 17,988 : SHOWS 1 : SELLOUTS 1

85, 86. Los Angeles, Calif. : Nov. 1-2, 2005 : Staples Center : GROSS $3,656,978 : ATTENDANCE 34,291 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

87, 88. Las Vegas, Nev. : Nov. 4-5, 2005 : MGM Grand Garden : GROSS $3,864,843 : ATTENDANCE 31,863 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

89, 90. Oakland, Calif. : Nov. 8-9, 2005 : Oakland Arena : GROSS $3,638,620 : ATTENDANCE 36,340 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

91, 92. Miami, Fla. : Nov. 13-14, 2005 : American Airlines Arena : GROSS $3,589,942 : ATTENDANCE 37,354 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

93. Tampa, Fla. : Nov. 16, 2005 : St. Pete Times Forum : GROSS $1,825,243 : ATTENDANCE 19,354 : SHOWS 1 : SELLOUTS 1

94, 95. Atlanta, Ga. : Nov. 18-19, 2005 : Philips Arena : GROSS $3,500,572 : ATTENDANCE 36,334 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

96, 97. New York, N.Y. : Nov. 21-22, 2005 : Madison Square Garden : GROSS $3,859,828 : ATTENDANCE 37,314 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

98. Ottawa : Nov. 25, 2005 : Corel Centre : GROSS $1,486,710 : ATTENDANCE 18,647 : SHOWS 1 : SELLOUTS 1

99, 100. Montreal, Quebec : Nov. 26, 28, 2005 : Bell Centre : GROSS $3,575,491 : ATTENDANCE 43,294 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

101, 102. Boston, Mass. : Dec. 4-5, 2005 : TD Banknorth Garden : GROSS $3,400,861 : ATTENDANCE 34,583 : SHOWS 2 : SELLOUTS 2

103. Hartford, Conn. : Dec. 7, 2005 : Hartford Civic Center : GROSS $1,542,471 : ATTENDANCE 16,165 : SHOWS 1 : SELLOUTS 1

104. Buffalo, N.Y. : Dec. 9, 2005 : HSBC Arena : GROSS $1,711,094 : ATTENDANCE 18,826 : SHOWS 1 : SELLOUTS 1

105. Cleveland, Ohio : Dec. 10, 2005 : Quicken Loans Arena : GROSS $1,791,497 : ATTENDANCE 19,765 : SHOWS 1 : SELLOUTS 1

106. Charlotte, N.C. : Dec. 12, 2005 : Charlotte Bobcats Arena : GROSS $1,672,440 : ATTENDANCE 17,804 : SHOWS 1 : SELLOUTS 1

107. St. Louis, Mo. : Dec. 14, 2005 : Savvis Center : GROSS $1,839,020 : ATTENDANCE 19,923 : SHOWS 1 : SELLOUTS 1

108. Omaha, Nebraska : Dec. 15, 2005 : Qwest Center : GROSS $1,500,834 : ATTENDANCE 16,134 : SHOWS 1 : SELLOUTS 1

109. Salt Lake City, Utah : Dec. 17, 2005 : Delta Center : GROSS $1,709,317 : ATTENDANCE 18,197 : SHOWS 1 : SELLOUTS 1

110. Portland, Ore. : Dec. 19, 2005 : Rose Garden : GROSS $1,670,879 : ATTENDANCE 18,233 : SHOWS 1 : SELLOUTS 1






3RD LEG OF VERTIGO WORLD TOUR TOTALS TO DATE

GROSS: $90,509,002
ATTENDANCE: 936,975
AVERAGE GROSS PER SHOW: $1,810,180
AVERAGE ATTENDANCE PER SHOW: 18,740
AVERAGE TICKET PRICE: $97.01
SHOWS: 50
SELLOUTS: 50





As anyone can see, there is simply no comparison. U2 are way ahead in both gross and attendance in North America.

Maoilbheannacht

Do you realize on her current tour in North America, that there are still $55 dollar tickets available for her only show in the Los Angeles area? Same with shows in Detroit, Miami, and San Diego.

There are still $98 dollar tickets available for her second shows in the San Francisco and Chicago markets. The San Francisco and Chicago markets are arena shows with seats not being sold behind the stage!

U2 soldout multiple shows in these markets using all the seats behind the stage. 6 in Chicago and 4 in the San Francisco area. But Madonna has peaked out at only two shows in each market, and these are not even soldout.

This comparison to U2 has turned into a complete JOKE!

Yahweh

Because U2 probably would like to keep ticket prices affordable and not charge exorbonant amounts that some of their fanbase couldnt afford. Madonna is called The Material Girl for a reason because she really doesnt care what price is being charged. U2does care about the prices and thats why they put the best prices in the GA area.

If U2 played 60 shows on a tour they could charge 500 dollars or more a seat and they would sell out. That does not mean people would be happy about it though.

Moggio

In general, yes. But not in this case. For example, in 2006, Madonna also played Hartford, Boston, Philadelphia & Atlantic City on the northeastern seaboard. Therefore, for ANYONE to say that a large portion of her NYC metro area gross derived from these markets since they already had their own shows, apart from the NYC metro area, has to be either joking or in denial.

The above markets are some of the FEW markets that U2 can outgross Madonna in. Let's not forget that. And the reason why Madonna only half-filled her show in Cardiff is because her AVERAGE PRICE WAS HIGHER THAN U2'S BY 56%. If Madonna had U2's average price for the Cardiff show, her attendance there would be roughly 52,000.


Once again, concerts are NEVER sold out.

Wrong.


For the third time, NO concert is EVER sold out. Promoters know what demand is going to be based on the factors I've already gone over a million times now. And if they want a show to look like it's sold out, it will. And if Madonna performed more shows per tour, things would obviously be different. Just because one show in one country isn't full, doesn't necessarily mean demand has been met for that entire country.


Again, NO concert is EVER sold out. But this is another one of the FEW markets Madonna cannot outgross U2 in.

Moggio

What are you talking about?

Anyone can see that in EVERY SINGLE NORTH AMERICAN MARKET presented above that both U2 & Madonna have performed in, Madonna outgrossed U2.

You must be joking, right?

Moggio

Why do you keep going on about attendance and supposedly sold out shows? Don't you realize that that doesn't mean a thing?

Madonna's ticket prices are higher than U2's and she outgrosses U2 in these markets. That means she's the larger draw. Period. Why is that so hard to understand?

I have access to the weekly boxscore listings (there's usually 300-400 per week). And when Madonna's new North American tour boxscores are released in the next few weeks, her grosses will probably be 10-15% higher than her shows in these same markets in 2006. I'll post them here when I get them...




You've got that right!

Moggio

U2's ticket prices will basically be $55/$120/$200 next year. GA only makes up about 10% of the arena floor capacity. So, I don't see how U2 is being generous?

Not necessarily. It depends on which market, venue capacity and ticket price you're talking about...

Moggio

Michael Jackson's 1996-1997 History tour played to 4.5 million fans and grossed $163,516,755, from 82 shows. Notably, this tour did not hit North America.

The 1984 Victory tour played to 2 million fans and grossed $75 million, from 55 shows. The 1987-1989 Bad tour played to 4.4 million fans and grossed $125 million, from 123 shows. And his 1993 Dangerous tour played to 3.5 million fans, from 69 shows...

Maoilbheannacht

She only had two shows in the United Kingdom. If the demand was really there, she should have been able to sellout the Cardiff show. Besides the London show, it was the only other show in the United Kingdom. In addition, to that, there was not a single show in Ireland.


In terms of the industry, there is such a thing as a sellout. Sorry, but being able to buy a ticket from someone who already purchased the ticket is not evidence of a show not being soldout.

In a country, like Spain, the Netherlands, when you don't sellout a single show and are only doing one or two shows, that is evidence that demand in the country has been met or is close to being met. These are small countries with excellent public transportation. A larger country might be a different matter, but not in these cases.