Maoilbheannacht

You've yet to accurately list a single case where this is actually true.


She had never played there before in her career. If she was such a strong drawing artist, stronger than U2, The Police or the Stones, she should have soldout. She played the Slane Castle concert that usually sells out almost every year regardless of who is on the bill. Yet, she fails to sellout with an attendance of only 62,000 when the max capacity of the venue is 78,000. Her Gross was $6.5 million. The Police nearly doubled that gross figure in 2007 with their show at Croke Park. U2 nearly quadrupled it.

mmmm, thats what I meant by the fact that sometimes small batches of tickets are released later. Try reading the response first before you answer it.

The tickets that are still available in Chicago, San Francisco, Boston, Philadelphia are $98 DOLLAR TICKETS! These tickets are NOT HIGHER PRICED THAN U2 TICKETS!!!!! In San Diego, Los Angeles, Miami, Detroit, and a few other shows, there are tickets as low as $55 DOLLARS available!

Madonna only has one arena show in Philadelphia. Yet, she has FAILED to sellout the show in one of the largest markets in the United States. There is not even a show in the nearby Baltimore/Washington DC market which should make a sellout in Philadelphia even easier. Yet, there are still tickets available at $98 dollars and $55 dollars for an Arena show that is not even selling seats behind the stage!!!!!


In terms of the tickets made available to the public on the first day of sale, all 3 concerts at the Amsterdam Arena soldout within hours of going on sale. Thousands of fans attempting to get tickets the first day they went on sale were UNABLE TO GET THEM!


Arthur Fogal, one of the main promoters at Live Nation does not agree with you.

Thats irrelevant to what is being discussed in the case of the Netherlands.

Maoilbheannacht

As I have already shown, U2 outgrossed Madonna in the New York City area and they did not even fully meet demand with the shows they played. They also outgrossed her in Los Angeles, the San Jose/San Francisco/Oakland area, Boston, Chicago, and Philadelphia when you total up all the shows they played in these markets in 2005.

That leaves on the following markets:

MGM Grand Garden Las Vegas 27,528 / 27,528 (sellout) $7,257,750
Save Mart Center Fresno 20,154 / 20,154 (sellout) $3,749,800
Glendale Arena Phoenix 28,820 / 28,820 (sellout) $4,890,090
Bell Centre Montreal 34,940 / 34,940 (sellout) $5,670,150
Hartford Civic Center Hartford 21,558 / 21,558 (sellout) $3,451,235
Boardwalk Hall Atlantic City 12,322 / 12,322 (sellout) $3,246,100
American Airlines Arena Miami 30,410 / 30,410 (sellout) $5,568,485

U2 did not play Fresno or Atlantic City so those markets cannot even be compared. The other 5 are the only ones you could even make a minimal argument and thats only if you assume that U2 just barely met demand in each of those markets, which is obviously unlikely given that each show in those markets soldout its publically available tickets within hours of going on sale.

Maoilbheannacht

It matters because all the tickets for the tour essentially went on sale at the same time before a single show was played. The effect you speak of occurs when artist puts a show on sale in the winter that occurs in the Spring, and then months later in the summer puts a show on sale in that same market that occurs in the fall.

But when everything is going on sale at once before any shows on the tour have been played, its much closer to being the same as the impact of just a single big show in that market. The number of multiple attendees is reduced when the on sales for so many shows are close together. The number of individuals that have money on hand to purchase tickets to multiple shows at once is less than those who would have the money to purchase tickets for multiple shows that have on sale dates that are spread out by 5 to 6 months.

Besides just claiming that, what evidence do you have to back that up?

The year was 1997. The last year Madonna had toured before that was 1993. Thats FOUR YEARS, NOT SEVEN YEARS! Not touring for four years is not considered to be "inactive".

Michael Cohl stated in 1997 that the only artist that could do more business on the road than U2 was the Rolling Stones.


Not only can you not name a single major industry figure that agrees with you on the idea that Madonna is a bigger touring artist than U2, but you can't show a single one that would agree with your WILD interpretation of the statistics.

Maoilbheannacht

You said $11 million dollars in gross, so thats what were going to compare it to when the figures come out. I'd say, if your lucky, she might hit the $6 million figure with those two shows which is NO WHERE near your predicted firgure of $11 million dollars. We will know for sure in a few weeks.

By the way, Madonna has four ticket price levels for her Chicago shows which are the following:

$350
$165
$95
$55

Tickets still remain available at ALL price levels for the second show!

Moggio

Only 62,000 fans saw Madonna? She only grossed $6.5 million? Listen to yourself!

Her stats are pretty damn good considering Ireland is a TINY market.


I'm not talking about later. I'm talking about the FACT that they're held back strictly for scalpers/brokers, VIPs, etc, even before shows go on sale.


You're just not getting, are you? Tickets are ALWAYS available.

What are you talking about? She has a show in Atlantic City - which is virtually the SAME market.

You're still not gettin' it...

Really? Part of Arthur's job is to create hype for a tour. What's he going to say...the tour is selling badly? Get ANY promoters to admit that...and I'll be impressed. Promoters will NEVER admit that a tour is not selling well. They'll always give another reason as to why shows are cancelled, postponed, etc. And no, I'm not referring to the fact that U2's tours haven't sold well. It's just a general comment.

Moggio

Not true. As I have already shown you, Madonna outgrossed U2 in the NYC metro area. She performed NO return engagements. U2 DID.

Again, not true.

U2 did return engagements in ALL of the above markets you've just listed...Madonna DID NOT. That means up to 40-50% of the U2 fans who saw them in the spring of 2005 returned to see U2 again in the fall of 2005 in those markets...

No. It leaves the ENTIRE LIST:

The Forum Los Angeles 40,044 / 40,044 (sellout) $7,686,380

MGM Grand Garden Las Vegas 27,528 / 27,528 (sellout) $7,257,750

HP Pavilion at San Jose San Jose 27,024 / 27,024 (sellout) $4,761,555

Staples Center Los Angeles 14,158 / 14,158 (sellout) $2,804,583

Save Mart Center Fresno 20,154 / 20,154 (sellout) $3,749,800

Glendale Arena Phoenix 28,820 / 28,820 (sellout) $4,890,090

United Center Chicago 52,000 / 52,000 (sellout) $9,271,790

Bell Centre Montreal 34,940 / 34,940 (sellout) $5,670,150

Hartford Civic Center Hartford 21,558 / 21,558 (sellout) $3,451,235

Madison Square Garden New York 91,841 / 91,841 (sellout) $16,507,855

TD Banknorth Garden Boston 36,741 / 36,741 (sellout) $6,337,115

Wachovia Center Philadelphia 29,749 / 29,749 (sellout) $4,639,775

Boardwalk Hall Atlantic City 12,322 / 12,322 (sellout) $3,246,100

American Airlines Arena Miami 30,410 / 30,410 (sellout) $5,568,485


Huh? Fresno is a stones throw away from the San Fran/Oakland/San Jose metro area. They're virtually the same market. If you look at Madonna's boxscores from her 2004 tour in the San Fran/Oakland/San Jose metro area, she grossed more than she did in 2006 there because she didn't perform in any other central Californian markets...

Also, like I said above, Atlantic City & Philadelphia are virtually the same market.

Who the hell are you trying to fool?


You are so in denial, it's not even funny...

Moggio

That's not true and YOU KNOW IT. All the shows didn't go on sale at "essentially the same time". Keep spinnin' it ...

Promoters already know what demand is going to be before shows go on sale. For example, do you think they're going to book several shows in the same market all at once, just for the hell of it, and risk taking a major financial loss if they weren't sure?

Keep tryin'...

I've studied the concert business for 18 years. I've looked at thousands upon thousands of boxscores and have studied demand for just about any artist you can name. Why?

My point was, at that point in time, Cohl obviously knew Madonna wasn't interesting in tour again, since he probably offered her tens of millions of dollars to tour again during this period...

That wasn't the quote.

So major industry figures are reading this board? Please. The numbers don't lie. Overall, Madonna is a larger draw worldwide than U2 is. FACT.



Not only do you know very litte about the concert business, you don't seem to understand that attendance can be adjusted based on what the venue capacities & ticket prices are set at, in relation to what the GROSS is. And that the GROSS is what is utilized when measuring an artists' drawing power. Amongst a plethora of other crucial factors, you also don't seem to realize that return engagements are structured to bring back a percentage of fans who already saw the artist(s) on the same tour in the same market, months later...

This is text book stuff...

Moggio

The gross should be in the neighborhood of $10-$11 million. If it's any less than that, then she's touring too frequently these days and hence her demand is becoming too saturated...

No, she has six-tier pricing for her Chicago shows this year:

$575 (VIP package)
$390 (VIP package)
$350
$165
$95
$55

genesis199125

moggio, i think when mosquito was asking about the boxscore data for Michael Jackson's HIStory Tour, he meant the INDIVIDUAL boxscores for each city. I also wanted to know the same thing. Have you really been studying the industry for 18 years, because so far, the figures you've been posting can easily be found on Wikipedia.

Moggio

I know. That's what I found. Just trying to help.

Yes.

So can plenty of pieces of info. So what?

Maoilbheannacht

Ireland has the 4th highest per capita GDP in the world. While there are only 5.7 million people on the Island, they have plenty of money which is why U2 and the Police have scored some of their best gross figures in Ireland. The Police got the highest gross figure of their entire career, nearly $12 million dollars, from their one show at Croke Park in 2007.

Madonna's figure is 30% of U2's, and only a little more than half of the Police figure. But more importantly, it was Madonna's FIRST SHOW EVER in Ireland, after a career spanning over 2 decades.


Well, whats your explanation for several hundred people not being able to get into a Dave Matthews concert at Hershey Park and having to spend the concert outside the stadium trying to listen to the music?

"Tickets are always available"? You need to seriously think about that statement.

Well, Arthur's not claiming that Madonna is the biggest drawing artist in the world, because he knows she is not. His last comments about
U2's Vertigo tour indicated that he wished the band had been willing to do more shows because they had left so much demand untapped.

Only the uninformed could claim that U2's tours have not sold well.

Maoilbheannacht

Ok fine, lets use your questionable formula for return engagements and assume that U2 met all demand in the New York City market which they didn't.

As you will see, even if we use these factors that you have set up, U2 still beats Madonna in the New York City market.



U2's New York City area GROSS in 2005 was: $19,262,989

3 SPRING SHOWS: $5,745,152

7 FALL SHOWS: $13,517,837

You claimed 40% to 50% of the people who saw them in the Spring went to see them in the Fall as well. So, lets subtract 45% from the Spring total of $5,745,152 and we get $3,159,834.

So, 7 shows in the FALL at $13,517,837 + $3,159,834 from the Spring = $16,677,670

Using YOUR formula U2 finish with a gross of $16,677,670

Madonna's GROSS was $16,507,855


So even by your own formula, U2 still comes out on top in the New York City area.




Do you consider San Diego to be virtually the same market as Los Angeles?

Maoilbheannacht

I know because I bought tickets to multiple shows. The first on sale date was the last week in January and the last on sale date was the first week in March. The entire tour, 78 shows, were put on sale over a 6 week period. Even when an artist is doing just 1 big single leg of a tour, they still stagger the on sale dates for the shows over several weeks. Yes, essentially the same time especially considering what were talking about.



Promoters have estimates which are sometimes wrong. Its a business and yes, people do lose money, every year in fact.


Many people on this board have been doing the same thing for even longer. The evidence I asked for was a source, something or someone BESIDES YOURSELF claiming the same thing.


Prove it. What evidence do you have that the above is so. When did Madonna ever state that she was definitely not going to tour again until 2001 back in the mid 1990s?

That was essentially the qoute, just paraphrased a little. Same thing though.

Don't recall ever claiming that major industry figures read the board. I just asked you to site a major industry figure that agrees with you on your wild interpretation of concert statistics.

Maoilbheannacht

What would you consider to be, "touring too frequently"? Give an example.

genesis199125